What does it take to run the Department of Defense?
It is one of the largest, most complex entities in the U.S. government.
There are more than 3 million employees, including civilians and military service members. Former Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said the department has its own judicial code, legal system and healthcare system.
Hagel, who was in charge from 2013 to 2015, told All Things Considered host Mary Louise Kelly that it is the "largest institution in the world."
Hagel joined the program to explain the challenges President-elect Donald Trump's nominee, Pete Hegseth, might inherit.
If confirmed, Hegseth would be the least experienced defense secretary in American history.
This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Interview highlights
Mary Louise Kelly: President-elect Trump's pick to lead the Pentagon is Pete Hegseth. He is a Fox News host. He's a veteran of the Army National Guard. He has never run a big organization. NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman reviewed the biographies of defense secretaries and secretaries of war. He says, "Without a doubt, Hegseth has the least experience." What questions does that raise?
Chuck Hagel: I think that is an issue, and I think the Senate confirmation process will bring that up. The confirmation process of these big jobs is so critically important. I think, though, it's more than just experience. It's the complete persona of all who you are and what you bring to the job.
Kelly: You wrote an opinion essay for The New York Times titled, "Why I'm Worried About Our Military." You write, "Political independence and ethics are the bedrock of our military today. I'm concerned that both are in danger." Secretary Hagel, why?
Hagel: If the military is ever politicized in any way – and we're seeing some indications from this incoming administration that it may be. For example, the "Warriors" group – a group that President-elect Trump has talked about evaluating generals and admirals, making decisions about whether those people are qualified to lead the military or not, or if they've made mistakes and then recommending to the president that he fire them – that's politicizing the military. And the things that Mr. Hegseth said about the military – that does concern me in every way.
Kelly: May I ask what remarks are giving you pause?
Hagel: Yes. For example, women should not be in combat. You know, we passed that marker a long time ago, this issue of diversity in the military.
Kelly: Just to put a point on this, Trump's nominee, Pete Hegseth, has suggested he would look to remove senior officers that he sees as "too woke." He has included the current chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in that. My question to you: Can he do that?
Hagel: Well, the president of the United States has the authority to fire any federal employee. He can do that. When you start talking about firing the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, whose record is as impressive as any record we've seen – when you talk about firing him because of so-called "woke" – what do you mean by that? That's what's so dangerous here, and that's why I'm so concerned. If, in fact, this administration follows through on these things, then we're in for a lot of trouble.
Kelly: What when you say we could be in for a lot of trouble? What does that mean?
Hagel: Officers resigning. When you start firing people from the outside, you'll have officers and senior enlisted resign. You will lose the quality of the people who now serve. Our adversaries will see that. Our allies will see that. They will take from that a weakening of our military, a weakening of our military leadership, a weakening of our commitment by our military to a purpose much larger than their own self-interest. And that's the United States of America's security.
Karen Zamora adapted this interview for the web.
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