SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
President-elect Donald Trump has announced a flurry of nominations for cabinet positions - a number are controversial. His choices for the Justice and Defense departments, Matt Gaetz and Pete Hegseth, respectively, have raised concerns even among some Republican lawmakers. Ron Elving joins us. Ron, thanks for being with us.
RON ELVING, BYLINE: Good to be with you, Scott.
SIMON: The charges against Matt Gaetz put before the House Ethics Committee are serious - sexual misconduct, illicit drug use, improper gifts, tried to obstruct government investigations. Is this too much freight for someone nominated to be the chief law enforcement officer of the United States?
ELVING: You know, you might think so, but it does not seem to have prevented his being nominated by his longtime ally, Donald Trump. This is Trump's return of loyalty because Gaetz has stood by Trump. Trump has said he wants to pay back some of the people in the Justice Department he sees as his tormentors, and Gaetz has made it clear he wants to do the same.
You mentioned those criminal allegations against Gaetz back in Florida. They have been investigated by the FBI without any criminal charges being brought. There was still an investigation going on with the House Ethics Committee and it was supposed to report yesterday. It did not do so because Gaetz resigned from the House midweek when Trump named him as attorney general.
Now that means the House Committee no longer has jurisdiction over him, so they've closed the books. Now, over in the Senate, where Gaetz needs to win confirmation, there have been signals that at least some Republican senators are reluctant about Gaetz. They don't think it's the best investment of Trump's dearly won political capital at this moment. However, some details of that report may be starting to leak, so we'll see whether that affects the nomination. There have also been reports of allegations against Trump's pick for the Defense Department, Pete Hegseth, a Fox News weekend host. That is still a developing story NPR has not confirmed.
SIMON: Ron, what's happening to labels like liberal and conservative? Tulsi Gabbard and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. were progressive Democrats not so long ago. Tulsi Gabbard, vice chair of the DNC. Kennedy, a crusading environmental lawyer. What's changed in U.S. politics today that makes them nominees for a Trump administration?
ELVING: It's clear we need more than two labels, more colors than just red and blue. Both RFK Jr. and Tulsi Gabbard have been at odds with the Democratic Party, at least as much as they've been in sync with it in recent years. They both take positions that are anathema to mainstream Democrats. Kennedy denying the safety of vaccines, Gabbard defending the Russian invasion of Ukraine and blaming it on NATO.
If confirmed, both will be at odds from day one with many - if not most - of the people they're going to be supervising and working with. And it's hard to escape the impression that this is what Trump wants. He feels he was treated badly by the intelligence community and the health care agencies in his first term, and he intends to do something about it.
SIMON: For those of us who recall the first Trump administration, there was a tremendous churn, if you please. He was onto his fourth chief of staff by the end of his term. I think Rex Tillerson, secretary of state, was even fired in a tweet. Do you anticipate the same amount of turnaround in the second Trump administration?
ELVING: The same amount - that is a high standard. You mentioned four chiefs of staff, and the one who lasted the longest, retired Marine Gen. John Kelly, has been the most critical of Trump, at least publicly in recent years. Trump did not scramble other top positions quite that often. But officials whose functions were most closely associated with Trump's own success or failure tended to be the ones who got fired.
Trump won the popular vote this month, as well as the electoral college, and that's very important to him. It reinforces his attitude of invincibility. If there were still some guardrails in the first term, it's hard to discern as many now.
SIMON: NPR's Ron Elving - no better person to talk to during these times. Thanks so much for being with us.
ELVING: Thank you, Scott. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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