SACHA PFEIFFER, HOST:
U.S. and Ukrainian officials met in Geneva, Switzerland, today for high-level talks on a peace plan to end the Russia-Ukraine war. Secretary of State Marco Rubio told reporters he's optimistic, even though no deal was made, but the Ukrainian ambassador to the U.S. voiced serious concerns about the proposed agreement. For more on those negotiations, NPR's Luke Garrett is with me in the studio. Hi, Luke, and thanks for coming in in person.
LUKE GARRETT, BYLINE: Hey, Sacha. It's good to be here.
PFEIFFER: Would you outline what's in this draft peace plan that the U.S. and Ukrainians are discussing today?
GARRETT: It's a bit of a moving target as talks are still ongoing as we speak, but here's what we know about the initial U.S. 28-point proposal. First, Ukraine would give up some territory to Russia, including in the Donbas, which it controls. It would also have to cede Crimea and Luhansk, which Russia has occupied. Second, Ukraine would have to reduce the size of its army by about 30%, capping it at 600,000 troops. And the deal would block Ukraine's pathway to NATO membership, though it would remain eligible for EU membership.
In short, Sacha, this initial plan contains many of Russian President Vladimir Putin's wishes, and it gives few security guarantees to Ukraine. But the influential former chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, Republican Representative Michael McCaul, tells ABC News, this is really a first draft.
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MICHAEL MCCAUL: The way the White House described it last night was we had to start putting this pen to paper so we could get something accomplished.
GARRETT: A U.S. official not authorized to share details confirmed this to NPR's Tom Bowman, saying today's meeting was all about, quote, "ironing out the details."
PFEIFFER: In terms of where this plan came from, we heard yesterday from one of South Dakota's U.S. senators, Republican Mike Rounds, that the plan originated in Russia. What do we know about that?
GARRETT: Right. And it wasn't just Rounds who said this. Several senators from both parties said this plan came from Moscow. Now, last night, Secretary Rubio denied this, saying the proposal was, quote, "authored by the U.S." But Rubio posted on social media that it was, quote, "based on input from the Russian side." Here's McCaul again, offering some details he was told by the White House.
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MCCAUL: The inception of this agreement seems to have come from a Witkoff discussion with the Russian, Dmitriev, who heads up the Russian sovereign wealth fund.
GARRETT: And that's Trump's special envoy, Steve Witkoff, that McCaul is referencing there, who was in Geneva today for these talks, along with Rubio, Army Secretary Daniel Driscoll and Jared Kushner, among others.
PFEIFFER: We mentioned that the Ukrainian ambassador to the U.S. has great reservations about this plan. What about - what are we hearing from other Ukrainian officials?
GARRETT: That's right. So from the top, you know, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy posted on social media that, you know, his main goal today and here in these negotiations is to stop the war and prevent it from happening again. He went on to say, quote, "Ukraine is grateful to the United States, to every American heart and personally to President Trump. Now, this post came just hours after Trump said Ukrainian leadership lacked gratitude in the wake of this U.S. peace plan, seen as really favoring Russia. But in Geneva, you know, tones were a little bit different than on social media. Top Ukrainian official, Andriy Yermak, struck a positive, you know, note about these talks with Rubio.
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ANDRIY YERMAK: We have a very productive first session with distinguished American delegation. We have very good progress, and we are moving forward to the just and lasting peace.
GARRETT: Rubio echoed Yermak and said changes to the plan had been discussed, but he did not give details. He said they needed more time to finalize this agreement.
PFEIFFER: So as we keep watching these negotiations in Geneva, what are we hearing from Russia and then from Europe?
GARRETT: Right. On Friday, Putin told his security cabinet that Moscow had received this 28-point plan and that it could be the basis for peace settlement. But the plan received, you know, last week will likely be different from the final product coming out of Geneva. It's unclear if Moscow will accept this new, you know, proposal. And the Ukrainian ambassador said - and the Ukrainian ambassador to the U.S. says, you know, Russia is not part of these official talks, so they're kind of, you know, blind here in Switzerland. As for the European officials, they are in Geneva, too, and they have their own talks with Ukraine. But they weren't involved in crafting this U.S. plan.
PFEIFFER: And here in the United States, what are U.S. lawmakers saying?
GARRETT: Well, there is some bipartisan pushback in Congress in Washington. McCaul, a Republican, says the U.S. peace plan gives Putin too much, and it doesn't give Ukraine enough security guarantees.
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MCCAUL: For without that, I would not advise Ukraine to sign this. They can't sign an agreement like the Budapest and then allow Russia to invade again.
GARRETT: He is referencing there the 1994 Budapest Memorandum where Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for promised security. Those guarantees didn't hold up. Democrat Senator Mark Warner, the vice chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, you know, took his criticism a bit further on Fox News.
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MARK WARNER: This initial plan would be a total capitulation by Ukraine. I think it would go down, frankly, as a historically bad deal.
PFEIFFER: But Sacha, not all lawmakers in D.C. are against the deal. On Fox News, Republican Senator Eric Schmitt of Missouri praised Trump for this peace idea.
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ERIC SCHMITT: The United States of America needs to refocus its attention in a much more meaningful way on the homeland, our hemisphere.
GARRETT: In recent weeks, Trump has faced increased pressure from his right flank to refocus on domestic issues rather than foreign wars and visits. And Kentucky Senator Rand Paul recently said that, you know, if the U.S. puts more money behind Ukraine, he could see a splintering in this MAGA movement.
PFEIFFER: Interesting - as they look on how to weigh domestic concerns versus foreign ones.
GARRETT: That's right.
PFEIFFER: That is NPR's Luke Garrett. Thank you very much.
GARRETT: You bet. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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