LEILA FADEL, HOST:
The Supreme Court has not yet issued a major ruling against President Trump in his second term.
A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
They heard arguments yesterday in a case about Trump's tariffs. We don't know yet what the opinion will say. But the justices' questions yesterday, including from conservatives, were skeptical of Trump's positions.
FADEL: NPR White House correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben was listening. Good morning, Danielle.
DANIELLE KURTZLEBEN, BYLINE: Good morning.
FADEL: OK, so just recap for us. What were these arguments about?
KURTZLEBEN: Well, they were about the law that Trump used to impose those tariffs you mentioned. It's a 1977 law called the International Emergency Economic Powers Act - or IEEPA. And it gives a president broad economic powers during an emergency. So in this case, you had a group of businesses and states arguing that that law does not give the president the power to impose these tariffs. In fact, they noted that IEEPA doesn't even contain the word tariffs.
FADEL: OK, so what was the administration arguing here?
KURTZLEBEN: There's a key phrase in IEEPA that was central to the arguments. That law says a president can, quote, "regulate imports." Solicitor General John Sauer said that allows a president to tariff because, he argued, tariffs are simply a basic way to regulate imports. But that connected then to a bigger constitutional question, whether in the process of regulating imports the president is allowed to tax, because the Constitution gives Congress the power to raise revenue.
And this led to a lot of questions about what the president can and can't do. Justice Kavanaugh at one point suggested that he didn't think that Congress intended to create what he called a doughnut hole. That is, he didn't think they meant to allow a president to regulate imports using, say, sweeping embargoes but not to impose even a minimal tariff. And here we're going to hear him talking to Benjamin Gutman, one of the lawyers challenging the tariffs.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
BRETT KAVANAUGH: That doesn't seem - but I want to get your answer - to have a lot of common sense behind it.
BENJAMIN GUTMAN: I think it absolutely does because it's a fundamentally different power. It's not a doughnut hole. It's a different kind of pastry.
FADEL: (Laughter).
KURTZLEBEN: That got laughter in the courtroom and even got a chuckle out of Kavanagh. But what Gutman was saying was that this is about types of powers, that the law gives the president broad powers but that that simply doesn't include tariffs.
FADEL: So not about pastries, then, Danielle?
KURTZLEBEN: Right (laughter).
FADEL: What sense did you get - I mean, you watched this a lot more closely than I did - of how the justices felt about these arguments?
KURTZLEBEN: Well, as you said, there was some skepticism. The more liberal justices were definitely more open to the arguments against the tariffs. But even some more conservative justices seemed skeptical of the government's arguments. Justice Gorsuch was especially concerned about whether Congress was delegating one of its core jobs to the president here and whether that's even allowed.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
NEIL GORSUCH: What would prohibit Congress from just abdicating all responsibility to regulate foreign commerce, for that matter, declare war, to the president?
JOHN SAUER: We don't contend that he could do that. If it...
GORSUCH: Why not?
SAUER: Well, because we're dealing with a statute, again, that has a whole set of...
GORSUCH: I'm not asking about the statute. General, I'm not asking about the statute. I'm asking for your theory of the Constitution.
KURTZLEBEN: And there were a few exchanges like that with Gorsuch really poking at Sauer's rationale.
FADEL: And what happens if they decide against the president?
KURTZLEBEN: Well, on tariffs, the ultimate effect is unclear. I mean, a bunch of his tariffs would then be illegal. But other tariffs, like the ones he's imposed on particular goods like steel and aluminum, those would remain. And he could use other laws to impose more. Now, as for Trump himself, he has called this the most important Supreme Court case ever. So yeah, he'd be upset. But also importantly, we would be seeing this court trying to meaningfully rein in his power, so we would see what comes of that. And a ruling is expected by July.
FADEL: NPR's Danielle Kurtzleben. Thank you so much.
KURTZLEBEN: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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