MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
If you want me there, I will be there - President Trump today promising President Zelenskyy of Ukraine that he'll come if the next talks are trilateral, along with Vladimir Putin of Russia. Today's meeting saw Zelenskyy at the White House alongside European prime ministers and presidents, the head of NATO. They had all rushed to Washington to support Zelenskyy and support Ukraine and support efforts to bring peace to that country 3 1/2 years after Russia launched its full-scale invasion. So how does the recent onslaught of diplomacy bode for efforts to end the war? Well, earlier today, before that White House meeting ended, I posed that question to Susan Rice. She served as national security adviser to President Obama and as a domestic policy adviser under President Biden.
To what degree does today move the ball forward on ending the war? We saw a very different tone today at the White House than last Friday with Vladimir Putin in Alaska.
SUSAN RICE: I think it's very much unclear. We haven't heard the results of the main meeting with the Europeans and Zelenskyy quite yet, but Zelenskyy did characterize his bilateral with Trump as one of the best that he's had. So we have that to go on.
KELLY: It was very...
RICE: I do think...
KELLY: ...Cordial, at least from what we could see when they came out and spoke about it afterwards - Zelenskyy thanking Trump over and over and over, in contrast to the last time they met.
RICE: It was definitely a contrast to the last time they met. And even the prolonged pool spray in the Oval Office, which preceded the meeting, largely avoided any rancor. But I think we have to set this against a larger backdrop, which is that President Trump went to Alaska, rolled out the red carpet quite literally for Vladimir Putin and had gone in demanding a ceasefire and threatening sanctions should he not get that, walked away without a ceasefire, withdrew his threat of sanctions.
And now we know he has adopted what is essentially the Russian position, which is that a ceasefire isn't necessary, even if it might yet be desirable, but rather to continue the fighting while prolonged negotiations ensue about a lasting peace. That is a position which several of the Europeans objected to publicly today. And that really puts the Ukrainians in a very difficult position because the killing and dying continues. The Russian attacks are relentless. And the longer the war goes on, the more will die, and Putin's advantage remains.
KELLY: Let me ask you about the Europeans who were, as I said, out in full force at the White House. Zelenskyy brought a lot of backup today. It was quite the show of unity. How much does that matter? How much sway do they hold over President Trump or President Putin's next move?
RICE: I think it matters quite a bit. I mean, to have Zelenskyy backed up by the most important European leaders, and Trump showing them the deference and respect that they deserve as our core allies today is a statement of unity behind Zelenskyy, which has been needed. And I think - that's why I'm very eager to see the outcome of the discussion because, you know, in the public sessions, the president sort of has taken a position that sounds quite a bit like he's representing the Russian absence around the table. You know, Putin is very much committed to peace. Putin wants to end this war. There's nothing about what Putin did or said in Alaska that suggests that - quite the opposite. But, you know, Trump was insisting that a ceasefire may not be necessary, that, you know, Putin really wants peace, that he's ready for a trilateral. So having the Europeans there with Zelenskyy, backing him up, and having Trump acknowledge their importance...
KELLY: Right.
RICE: ...I do think is an important step.
KELLY: As all of these leaders try to find some way to begin to bring this war to an end, to the point you just made, Susan Rice, have you seen anything that gives you any glimmer of hope that Vladimir Putin has stepped away from his fundamental view that Ukraine is Russia, that it must never join NATO, that its army must be defanged?
RICE: I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest that. Putin's own words in Alaska were quite clear. He continues to refer to root causes, continues to insist on Russia's interests predominating. He wants to see Ukraine subordinated, if not absorbed into Russia. And then, today, Mary Louise, a very important statement out of the Russian foreign ministry, making it absolutely clear when we're talking about the very important issue on the table today of security guarantees that Russia is still absolutely unwilling to see any Western forces in Ukraine as part of any kind of security guarantee.
KELLY: Well, and this is interesting. Sorry to jump on you, but there were all kinds of questions about this today, as the European leaders gathered and had this pool spray at the White House, over this question of security assurances. The Trump team says they did. Trump envoy Steve Witkoff has said it's a game-changer. But we've seen nothing from Russia except possibly throwing some cold water on that. So what's going on?
RICE: Not some, a whole lot of cold water. I don't know what's going on. There have been other occasions in which Mr. Witkoff has misinterpreted or misunderstood what the Russian position is. I don't know if this is a case of that or if it's a Russian bait and switch. But what is clear is that the Russians have reiterated their long-standing position that they will not countenance any kind of Western military or security presence in Ukraine.
KELLY: Just about 30 seconds left, but trilateral meeting - Putin, Zelenskyy, Trump at the table - good idea?
RICE: Well, I think that is the necessary next step if there is to be any progress toward resolving this. I'd like to, again, see what comes out of the discussion today. Zelenskyy obviously needs to be at the table. It's urgent, and that's the only way forward.
KELLY: That is former national security adviser and former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice. Ambassador Rice, thanks.
RICE: Thank you, Mary Louise. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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