DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli. "Hacks," the very funny TV series about an older Vegas-style stand-up comic and the generational differences between her and her younger comedy writer, returned to HBO Max last night for its fourth season. Today, we feature our interviews with Jean Smart, who stars as Deborah Vance, the older comic, with Hannah Einbinder, who plays her young comedy writer, Ava, and with Paul W. Downs, who co-created, co-writes and co-stars as their talent manager, Jimmy. As the new season begins, Deborah and Ava are embarking on new jobs. Deborah, as the first female host of a big three-network late-night show, and Ava as her head writer. It's a job she got by defying Deborah, which changes their dynamic dramatically. Deborah makes that clear on Day 1 when she walks unannounced into Ava's new office.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "HACKS")
JEAN SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Well, aren't you a big, brave girl?
HANNAH EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) I guess I am. It's for the best.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) We'll see.
BIANCULLI: That's what's happening now on "Hacks." But let's go back to the beginning and start with Jean Smart, who spoke with Terry Gross when the show premiered on Max in 2021. Smart's comedic timing was obvious in the 1980s sitcom "Designing Women" and again in the early 2000s when she won two Emmys for her guest-starring role on "Frasier." More recently, she's played some pretty tough women in the TV series "Fargo" and "Legion" and in the HBO crime drama "Mare Of Easttown." When "Hacks" begins, the career of Deborah Vance is in decline.
In an attempt to save her career, Jimmy pairs her with a young woman comedy writer, Ava, whom he also manages. Neither wants to meet with the other, but they do, and Ava reluctantly flies to Vegas to meet with Deborah. At one of their first meetings, Deborah tells Ava the jokes she's written for her aren't funny. Then Deborah asks if Ava is a lesbian. Ava responds that Deborah is her employer, which makes it inappropriate for her to ask. And then Ava goes on to describe in graphic detail her sexual experiences with women and men and concludes by telling Deborah this.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "HACKS")
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) So anyway, I'm bi.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Jesus Christ. I was just wondering why you were dressed like Rachel Maddow's mechanic.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Great. So the jokes, you didn't like any?
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) They're not jokes. I mean, like, are they, like, thought poems? I had a horrible nightmare that I got a voicemail. What?
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) It's funny because voicemails are annoying. It's, like, just text.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) First of all, if you start a sentence with it's funny because, then it's probably not. And second, jokes need a punchline.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Well, in my opinion, traditional joke structure is very male. It's so focused on the ending. It's all about the climax.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Oh, look who's talking. I just got a TED Talk about yours.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS: Jean Smart, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. You're terrific in this, as you've been...
SMART: Thank you.
GROSS: Yeah, for so long. So, you know, you've done a lot of comedy, but this is the first time you've played a comic. Do you have any favorite jokes of the bad jokes that your character tells?
SMART: (Laughter).
GROSS: 'Cause they're both funny and bad at the same time.
SMART: Oh, sure, you know? I mean, I don't think of her jokes as bad necessarily. It's just that, you know, she's sort of got her stock-style jokes that she knows. She knows her audience really well. And she knows what they expect and what they don't want to hear from her. And she gives them what they pay for, you know?
I mean, as risque as she gets, it's probably the first joke we hear out of her mouth at the very beginning of the show, where you can just kind of hear her before we even see her face, where she talks about being in bed with a guy who keeps saying, you know, are you close? Are you close? And she says, yeah, I'm close. I'm close. I'm close to getting a buzz cut, a flannel shirt and finally accepting Melissa Etheridge's dinner invite.
GROSS: (Laughter).
SMART: I love that joke.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: Are there things you related to about the generational conflict in this? You know, 'cause, you know, the young comic who starts writing for your character thinks of herself as so, like, you know, cutting edge and a little transgressive. And she really has kind of contempt for your character 'cause it represents everything that she - that the younger comic doesn't want to be.
SMART: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You know, she thinks I'm a dinosaur, which I am, in a way. But Deborah's attitude, I think, is a little bit that Ava's generation has thrown the baby out with the bath water and that all they want to do is shock people into laughing. And that's much easier to do than to come up with something kind of clever that actually makes people laugh, not just out of shock. And so (laughter), you know, she - it's just sort of funny to watch them, you know, navigate this.
They come from completely different worlds, or at least seemingly at first. And Hannah actually is a stand-up comic. So I was a little bit intimidated at first and thinking, OK, she's playing the writer, I'm playing the comic. And she's an actual stand-up comic. Yeah, that's been the fun part is just their conflict. That's just - and the fact that I just get to abuse her horribly.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: You've played, like, brassy, cynical, sarcastic women in comedies and in dramas. In Entertainment Weekly, you were described as the reigning Meryl Streep of tough broad types.
SMART: (Laughter).
GROSS: So I want to play an example of that. And this is from your role in Fargo when you played the matriarch of a crime family that controls Fargo, and you've taken over from your husband after he had a debilitating stroke. Meanwhile, the Kansas City Mafia made an offer to take over your operation. And then, in this scene, you meet the gangster representing the Kansas City family, and you make a counteroffer, an offer for a partnership between their family and your crime family. So in this scene, you're laying out the terms of your deal and then warn him not to underestimate you. And the mobster from Kansas City is played by Brad Garrett. You speak first.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "FARGO")
SMART: (As Floyd Gerhardt) Now - I don't know - maybe when you look at me, you see an old woman. And I am 61. I've borne six children, had three miscarriages. Two of my sons are here today. Two were stillborn. My firstborn, Elron, killed in Korea - sniper took off half his head. The point is, don't assume just because I'm an old woman that my back is weak and my stomach's not strong. I make this counter because a deal is always better than war. But no mistake, we'll fight to keep what's ours to the last man.
BRAD GARRETT: (As Joe Bulo) You're a good woman. I wish I had known your husband.
SMART: (As Floyd Gerhardt) No. My husband would have killed you where you stood the first time you met. So be glad you're talking to his wife.
GROSS: You must have loved that speech when you read it.
SMART: (Laughter) I - oh, I did. That was the speech they gave you to audition with for Noah. And I said that tells me so much about this person.
GROSS: So I read that initially, when you got the part and the wardrobe came out (laughter) and the hairdresser came out that you looked at yourself in the mirror, and you actually burst into tears. What was the problem? What were you seeing in the mirror?
SMART: (Laughter) Well, I mean, I was very much - it was very much a collaboration. The costume designer and I had great fun coming up with the sort of less-than-attractive but very practical wardrobe. But - and then I suggested with the hair that they give me one of those kind of poodle perms that women of a certain age wore, especially back then - I know my mother did for a while - because they're just less maintenance. So I said, let's just get the blond out of my hair and cut it shorter and give it a little - give it a perm. And the first time I - but first time I looked at it, I just - my eyes started welling up. I thought, oh, my God. But I said, it's perfect. There she is. There's Floyd. There she is.
BIANCULLI: Jean Smart speaking to Terry Gross in 2021. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Jean Smart, who co-stars in the HBO Max series "Hacks." She also was in the HBO series "Mare Of Easttown," which Terry asked her about.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: Kate Winslet plays Mare Sheehan, who's a police detective trying to solve a murder. But there's a lot going on in her personal life. Her son died by suicide, leaving behind his young son who Mare is raising because the boy's mother has been in rehab. You're Mare's mother, and you've moved in with Mare to help her raise the grandson, your great-grandson. But you and Mare are afraid that you're about to lose custody because the boy's mother is getting out of rehab. You've been trying to prepare him for the likelihood he'll be returning to his mother. And that's made Mare very angry with you because she wants to keep custody. And let's hear a clip in which she's showing how angry she is that you're trying to prepare him to go back to his mother.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "MARE OF EASTTOWN")
KATE WINSLET: (As Mare Sheehan) Why are you telling him you might have to go live with his mom?
SMART: (As Helen Fahey) 'Cause he might have to go live with his mom.
WINSLET: (As Mare Sheehan) He's 4 years old, Mom. We don't know what's going to happen, all right? Don't be telling him stuff like that. He's lived in this house his entire life, Mom.
SMART: (As Helen Fahey) Which is why we need to prepare him. Otherwise, he'll feel like the ground is just falling out beneath him. I called Kathy Dryers (ph) today.
WINSLET: (As Mare Sheehan) You did what?
SMART: (As Helen Fahey) She works over at the child and youth services, and I thought that she might be...
WINSLET: (As Mare Sheehan) I know where Kathy Dryers works. Why the hell are you calling her?
SMART: (As Helen Fahey) Because I want to find out how this whole custody thing works.
WINSLET: (As Mare Sheehan) That is not your place, Mom, all right?
SMART: (As Helen Fahey) She told me Carrie has a place to stay and a job...
WINSLET: (As Mare Sheehan) It's so out of line for you to be telling him stuff like that, Mom.
SMART: (As Helen Fahey) ...And she stays clean and takes her meds. She's his mother. She's the mother. She'll get custody, and there's not a damn thing you or I can do about it.
WINSLET: (As Mare Sheehan) I'll figure something out.
SMART: (As Helen Fahey) What's there to figure out?
(SOUNDBITE OF KNOCKING)
JULIANNE NICHOLSON: (As Lori Ross) Hello.
WINSLET: (As Mare Sheehan) You're not his guardian, all right?
SMART: (As Helen Fahey) I know that. You don't have to say that.
WINSLET: (As Mare Sheehan) Mom, stay out of it.
NICHOLSON: (As Lori Ross) Hey.
WINSLET: (As Mare Sheehan) Understand me?
GROSS: Wow, that's - you're really good in this. How did you get the part?
SMART: They offered it to me. It was lovely (laughter). And I said, HBO? Kate Winslet? Unless I really hate the part...
GROSS: (Laughter).
SMART: ...I'll say yes right now. But I love their relationship because, I mean, even though it's a bit dysfunctional, I hope that there is - that it comes across to the audience as they still - there is still love and respect there between them. They've been through so much.
GROSS: So "Mare Of Easttown" is set in Delaware County, Pennsylvania, just outside of Philadelphia. And Delaware County has some pretty wealthy neighborhoods and some working-class suburbs. You probably saw this or at least heard about it - that "Saturday Night Live" did a parody of the accents.
SMART: Yes (laughter).
GROSS: Did you see it - of the accents of "Mare Of Easttown"?
SMART: Kate sent it to me (laughter).
GROSS: Yeah. And she's the one who got the brunt of the (laughter)...
SMART: It was hilarious.
GROSS: ...Of the satire in this. And the premise of the show is that instead of saying murder and daughter because of the perhaps overly exaggerated Philadelphia accents, it's like, mu-mu-mu (ph) - I can't even do it right - mordor (ph) and doorter (ph). Yeah, you do it. You do it.
SMART: Well, they - (laughter) I don't know quite where they were going with some of it, but yes, they called it murder dirter (ph) - murder daughter. But yes, like, the - one of the examples of that accent is the way they say water. It's wooder (ph). Like, almost like W-O-O-D-E-R. You know, you say, give me a glass of wooder - wooder.
GROSS: So did you have, like, an accent coach?
SMART: Oh, yes. Now, we had a couple wonderful dialect coaches. Mine was a native from the area, and she was extremely helpful, extremely helpful. And I would put my lines on a loop tape and just - on my phone and just fall asleep listening to it. I'd - sometimes I'd use my right ear so it would get in the left side of my brain, and sometimes I'd listen with my left ear so it would get in the right side of my brain. And I'd listen to it on the way to work and - 'cause you want it to be as automatic as possible 'cause if you're thinking about it while you're doing your lines, then you're not thinking about the right things (laughter). What you're supposed to be thinking about it - what your character's supposed to be thinking about. That's the hard part of doing an accent, but it's always fun to do accents.
GROSS: So I'm going to squeeze in one more clip. This is from "Frasier." This is the role that you won two Emmys for, and you're hilarious in this. So for people who don't know the sitcom "Frasier," Frasier is a psychiatrist who has a radio advice call-in show. And you played Lana Lenley, who was one of the most popular and pretty girls in high school, and Frasier had a crush on you. And now years later, you run into each other at a cafe, and you're a fan of his radio show. You hit it off, and you end up spending the night together. And this is, like, Frasier's high school dream come true.
SMART: (Laughter).
GROSS: And in the morning, you wake up in his bed. You still have a glass of wine on the night table next to you, which you use in the scene I'm about to play to swallow some pills later in the scene. You'll hear a reference to that, but you won't be able to see it. And so you wake up in the morning together. Things are still dreamy between the two of you until - OK, here is the scene. You speak first.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "FRASIER")
SMART: (As Lana Gardner) Oh, I had a wonderful time last night.
KELSEY GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) Me, too. It was like being back in high school but with sex.
(LAUGHTER)
SMART: (As Lana Gardner) I don't want this to end.
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) I must warn you, now that I've learned to finally ask you out, I'll be doing a lot more of it. You free this evening? See, there I go already.
SMART: (As Lana Gardner, laughing).
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) How about tomorrow night? Somebody stop me.
(LAUGHTER)
SMART: (As Lana Gardner) Not me. I wonder what time it is.
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) Oh, 10 o'clock.
SMART: (As Lana Gardner) Oh, crap. I'm late.
(LAUGHTER)
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) Is there something I can do?
SMART: (As Lana Gardner) Oh, yeah. Make this lousy hangover go away. Where the hell are those aspirin?
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) You know, perhaps I should get you a glass of water for those. Would you prefer sparkling or still? Or not - I see you're fine.
(LAUGHTER)
SMART: (As Lana Gardner) Oh, I'm sorry. Did you want to finish this?
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) No. No. You're the guest.
(LAUGHTER)
SMART: (As Lana Gardner) Oh.
(SOUNDBITE OF PHONE DIALING)
SMART: (As Lana Gardner) Yeah, it's me. I'm running late. Move my 10:30 to 11:30. Just move it to 11:30.
(LAUGHTER)
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) I didn't realize you smoked.
SMART: (As Lana Gardner) Oh, yeah. I'm always trying to quit, but my weight just balloons up. I mean, trust me - you don't want to see my ass when I'm off these things.
(LAUGHTER)
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) You know, I hate to be a fusspot, but I'd prefer...
(SOUNDBITE OF PHONE RINGING)
SMART: (As Lana Gardner) Yeah. Well, who let the dog in? Put your brother on. Put your brother on.
(As Lana Gardner, shouting) Put your brother on.
(LAUGHTER)
SMART: (As Lana Gardner) Oh, will you be a sweetie and make me some coffee?
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) OK.
(LAUGHTER)
SMART: (As Lana Gardner) Well, you know, that mess better be cleaned up by the time I get home - both of you. Put your brother on. Put your brother on.
(As Lana Gardner, shouting) Put your brother on the phone.
(LAUGHTER)
SMART: (As Lana Gardner) Oh, this is nice.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: Oh, you're so good in that.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: What do you think about when you hear that back?
SMART: Oh, I was so much fun. That was the first episode I did as that character, and it was my favorite one.
GROSS: Did it say in the script, get louder every time you say put your brother on? Or was that something you just figured out you should do?
SMART: I think I just assumed that that's what it would be (laughter).
GROSS: Right.
SMART: I have women coming up to me in supermarkets saying, oh, my God. That's me. That's me. Oh, my God.
(LAUGHTER)
SMART: What - oh, dear. OK, you know? People still come up and say, put your brother on the phone.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: You were so good in that scene, they brought you back for another season, and that was the second season that - you won an Emmy for that role. So you grew up in Seattle - right? - where "Frasier" was set. How did you get interested in acting?
SMART: I had a terrific drama teacher my last year in high school. His name was Earl Kelly. He was kind of locally famous 'cause he put on particularly good shows and musicals and things at our high school. And so then I took the class my senior year, and he was great. He was tough. I mean, he taught us - he treated us like we were, you know, a professional acting troupe. He expected a lot from us. He hated the fact that I was a cheerleader. He thought that was just appalling. (Laughter) But he liked me. And so I really got bitten by the bug. So I told my parents that I wanted to major in theater in college, and my mother was not too happy with me. But after I started doing some plays at the University of Washington, she became my biggest fan, my biggest supporter.
GROSS: When you were getting started, what were some of your day jobs?
SMART: You mean after I got out of college?
GROSS: Uh-huh.
SMART: I'm embarrassed to say I've never had another day job.
GROSS: You never - you were able to make a living acting right from the start?
SMART: Yeah. It wasn't much of a living, but yeah.
GROSS: How'd you do that?
SMART: Well, there's a lot of professional theater in Seattle. And between Seattle and the Oregon Shakespeare Festival in Ashland, Oregon, where I would do summers, I managed to just get by, you know? You'd always think, oh, jeez, I don't know if I have next month's rent. But something would come along.
GROSS: Did you go through any fallow periods where you thought, I'm never going to get a role again?
SMART: The only time that springs to mind that that happened, ironically, was after "Fargo." I, you know, got great reviews. The show was a big hit. I think I won the Critics' Choice award for that role - and crickets.
GROSS: Why?
SMART: I shouldn't say this, but I think it was because of the way I looked and that all of a sudden, it was sort of like, oh, dear, now she's an older woman, and now what do we do with her? And I don't know. I mean, literally, not a meeting, not an audition, not an offer for a long time. But once it started again, it's just been, you know, a steady climb towards, you know, wonderful roles. I mean, I just can't - I'm extremely grateful.
BIANCULLI: Jean Smart speaking with Terry Gross in 2021. Season four of "Hacks" has begun streaming this week on HBO Max. After a break, we'll hear from two other stars of "Hacks," Hannah Einbinder and series co-creator Paul W. Downs. And Justin Chang reviews "Warfare," a new film based on actual exploits of U.S. Navy SEALs. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF GARY BURTON & FRIENDS' "TOSSED SALADS AND SCRAMBLED EGGS (INSTRUMENTAL)")
BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's continue our show about "Hacks," the award-winning HBO Max comedy series, which began its fourth season this week. Hannah Einbinder plays Ava, the young writer teamed reluctantly with veteran female comic Deborah, played by Jean Smart. In real life, Einbinder is a stand-up comic who had her own comedy special on HBO Max last year. She's the daughter of Laraine Newman, an original cast member of "Saturday Night Live." Terry Gross spoke with Hannah Einbinder last year.
Let's listen to a clip from Season 3 of "Hacks." With Ava's help, Jean Smart's character of Deborah is making a comeback and is in line to be offered the job she always wanted, hosting a popular late-night TV show. She's about to be given an honorary degree and is at a party on the college campus when she finds out a video has gone viral stringing together some of her jokes from years ago, jokes that now are considered insensitive and problematic. Ava, played by Hannah Einbinder, is by her side. Jean Smart's character, Deborah, speaks first.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "HACKS")
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) I can't believe this is happening now.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) I know. It's really bad timing.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) I finally get an ounce of relevance. I'm this close, and they just want to take it away from me again.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) I'm sorry to say this, but, I mean, you're not the only victim here.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Oh. Oh, really? Who's the other victim - someone who was offended by a joke?
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Many jokes.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) I'm sorry. People are too easily offended now. If you don't like a joke, don't laugh.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) They're not.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) This is insane. Me - I'm being taken down by a liberal mob - me, who was the first person to be fined by the FCC for saying the word abortion on TV. Why come after me?
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Hey. Hey. This is not a value judgment on your entire being.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Oh, really?
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) They're just upset about some mistakes you made.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Jokes I made, jokes that everybody was doing at the time.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Yes, and the jokes were hurtful. Both things can be true. You get to be rich and famous for making jokes, and people are allowed to have their reactions to them. I mean, why not use your comedian brain to fight through your defensiveness and think outside of yourself? Isn't that what good comics do? Why don't you just apologize?
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: OK, that scene was set at a fraternity party on the campus. Hannah Einbinder, welcome to FRESH AIR. How did you get the part on "Hacks" with no previous acting experience?
EINBINDER: (Laughter).
GROSS: You've done sketch comedy. You did a great set on the Stephen Colbert show right before the pandemic lockdown. So how did you pull that off?
EINBINDER: Well, yeah, I went in with the rest of the - with all the eligible ladies in the land. I went into a casting office, like, first round, early days on it. And I - you know, what ultimately did it in the end was I added jokes in my audition. Every step of the way, I would add my own jokes and...
GROSS: So you punched up the script you were given?
EINBINDER: Yeah, a perfect script that needed no punch-up, might I add. But I did just, you know - 'cause it was so funny. And it - when something is such a quality piece of work, for me, it's so easy to kind of spitball off of that. So I just loved the material, and I had ideas for it. And so I just added jokes along the way, and I did about three auditions. My first one was, like, several days before the initial COVID lockdown, and then months went by, and I did my callback on Zoom. And, again, in that callback, I added several jokes, and I also added that Ava would vape after a punch line. I bought a vape, and I hit it in the - I smoked it in the callback.
GROSS: What was the scene that you were given to audition? And did they keep the jokes that you wrote in the actual TV series?
EINBINDER: They did. And the audition scenes were the first scene where we meet my character in her manager Jimmy's office. And she's, you know, on the verge, talking about wanting to jump out the window, and she's just been, you know, canceled, if you will. And then the other scene is the interview scene between Ava and Deborah when they first meet.
GROSS: So can you give an example of a joke you wrote that they kept?
EINBINDER: In the audition scene, the one between Jean and I.
GROSS: And just to set it up, you both have the same agent. It's the son of the person who was originally Jean Smart's agent.
EINBINDER: Yes.
GROSS: The older agent died. His son represents your character and Smart's character. And he kind of finagles things to get you to go to Jean Smart's house to audition, but he never tells Jean Smart that. So he thinks it could get off to a terrible start.
EINBINDER: Yes. I added just some color to the initial interview scene between Ava and Deborah. I added that Ava - the line was that she flew all the way here, and I added, on Spirit...
GROSS: Right. OK. That's funny.
EINBINDER: ...Airlines.
GROSS: Yeah.
EINBINDER: And I think I...
GROSS: 'Cause you're talking about the effort you went to to get here, and now she's just rejecting you without even talking to you yet.
EINBINDER: Yeah. There was also a line. I said, who's your decorator, Melania Trump? 'Cause she has this sort of very baroque style going on, sort of Versace palace vibes.
GROSS: (Laughter) Did you learn a lot about acting by working with Jean Smart?
EINBINDER: Oh, yeah. Everything.
GROSS: Was it mostly by example, or did she give you actual tips?
EINBINDER: It was very much by example. She's really so gifted naturally and also technically, you know, when it comes to the very, you know, meticulous blocking work and continuity. And, you know, I picked up the pen on this line, just things like that. She's very sharp, and she's very on it, and I have tried to absorb as much as I can.
GROSS: So, you know, your mother is Laraine Newman, one of the original cast members of "Saturday Night Live." When you were growing up, was being funny something that was really prized or rewarded by your parents?
EINBINDER: Certainly, 100%. Yeah. I think it was the main currency in our home. And, you know, my parents are both tough laughs, so I had to do a lot to get what I wanted - you know? - to do, like, a lot to get a big response from them. And, yeah, it's like a - it is a love language, for sure. And that was definitely my experience growing up.
GROSS: Do you feel like you learned how to take something really awful that happened to you and tell a funny story about it - like, turn, like, bad things into comedy?
EINBINDER: Yeah. I mean, I think that might just be a product of being Jewish. But, yeah, it's also...
GROSS: It could be (laughter).
EINBINDER: It's also my specific upbringing, for sure. Yeah.
BIANCULLI: Hannah Einbinder co-stars in the HBO Max series "Hacks." She spoke with Terry Gross last year. Here's Einbinder on "The Late Show With Stephen Colbert." He asked her about the possibility of a romantic relationship between her character and Jean Smart's on "Hacks," apparently, something a lot of fans want.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT")
EINBINDER: I don't think it's going to happen, and that's the truth. And, again, like, I want you to express yourself in the fan fiction, and that is beautiful.
(LAUGHTER)
EINBINDER: We're not going to get it. And I - and we need to focus up because I will post on Instagram like, hey, guys, we all need to support SB 222 to make polluters pay for climate disasters, and everybody sign the petition right now. And I'll get, like, 16 replies that are like, (shouting) make them kiss.
(LAUGHTER)
EINBINDER: And I'm like, girls, we got to focus. We got to focus 'cause there's no kissing on a dead planet. You know what I'm saying?
BIANCULLI: Coming up, Paul W. Downs, who plays Jimmy. Downs also co-created and co-writes the show. This is FRESH AIR.
This is FRESH AIR. Paul W. Downs co-created, co-writes and co-stars in "Hacks," playing the talent manager, Jimmy. He created "Hacks" with his comedy partners, his wife, Lucia Aniello and their friend and collaborator, Jen Statsky. Downs and Aniello also direct many of the episodes. Before creating "Hacks," the trio worked on the Comedy Central show "Broad City," in which Downs also co-starred. Paul W. Downs spoke with Ann Marie Baldonado last year. Let's hear another clip from the very first episode of "Hacks." Jimmy is fielding a call from his big client, Deborah, played by Jean Smart. She's in danger of losing part of her Las Vegas residency. By the way, Downs won an Emmy for writing this episode.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "HACKS")
PAUL W DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) Deborah, perfect timing. How are you, my favorite client?
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Marty wants to cut my dates. He blindsided me at lunch, that snake. Oh, he says he needs to appeal to a younger crowd. You got to do something about this, Jimmy.
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) OK, I will call Morty.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Marty.
DOWNS: (As Jimmy LuSaque) Marty, yes. But I have a pitch. What if you hire a writer? I actually represent a very in-demand young woman. She wrote for a hit show. Nominated for an Emmy. Almost everybody is talking about her.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) I write my own material. I do not need a writer. I need a manager. Your father would have handled this. He promised me you'd take care of me. Don't make your dead father a liar, Jimmy.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
ANN MARIE BALDONADO: I want to go back to the origins of the show "Hacks." Where did the idea for "Hacks" come from? And I think some of the origin story involves a car trip way back in 2016.
DOWNS: Yeah, actually, 2015...
BALDONADO: Oh, 2015.
DOWNS: ...If you can believe it. Yeah. So we were - Jen Statsky, Lucia Aniello and myself were driving from Boston to Portland, Maine. They were with me helping me and writing jokes for the special. And as we drove up, we were talking about our favorite comedians, most of whom are women, and how so many of those women just never have the same opportunities and just didn't get the same respect that a lot of their male counterparts did.
And so we were just talking about that phenomenon. And, you know, the three of us also started comedy at the UCB Theater in New York, which is, you know, sort of an alt comedy scene. And we were also talking about this phenomenon of cool comedy versus, you know, what young, cool comedians might consider hacky comedy. And so we just started talking about this phenomenon and thought, well, you know, what would be a cool show is a show about sort of an icon of comedy who is misunderstood by someone of a younger generation. And so we just - yeah, emailed each other the idea for the show and kept talking about it for four or five years before we pitched it.
BALDONADO: I think it's kind of a thing now to ask comedians what their thoughts are about cancel culture, the thought that it's difficult to do comedy now because everyone's too PC. And I think it's a little unfair to ask all comics about this issue, but you and your co-creators actually take this topic head on, especially this season. Why did you want to do that and not shy away from it? I'll say, too, that the series even starts with the younger comic, Ava, having a tough time getting a job because this kind of edgy joke she put on Twitter kind of made it so that it was hard for her to get work.
DOWNS: Yeah. I mean, it's funny because we pitched this episode where Deborah goes back to her alma mater for an honorary degree but then some of her older material comes back to haunt her. We pitched that when we pitched the show, and we didn't have exactly the right moment for it. I think this season because she's on the precipice of a really big job and sort of the stakes of her career are more heightened than they have been, it was the perfect moment to do it.
But also, it's a scary thing because I don't think we've ever wanted the show to be a show about, quote, "cancel culture," you know? And also, it's such a sort of minefield. And, you know, to wrap your arms around it is tricky. And I think if we ever - you know, we want to make a show that, first, makes people laugh. It's a comedy. But we also want to make a show that makes people think because honestly, if we have the opportunity to do that - we have this platform - it's like, why not make something that makes you talk with the people you've watched it with or makes you think about something and reframe something you've thought about in the past?
So we do want to do that. You know, it's sort of like - we like to think that if we lead with comedy and lead with funny first, we can get away with sort of, you know, tackling issues. Because these two people would have very different perspectives on - name any issue, you know, because they're of such different generations. And so, you know, this year we were like, well, let's do this because it feels right. And let's try and represent both of their points of view equally.
BALDONADO: Well, yeah, at the end of Season 3, Deborah, played by Jean Smart, gets into trouble because someone has released a supercut of some of her worst jokes from the past - racist jokes, jokes about people with disabilities. And Ava, the younger comic, like you were just saying, encourages her to be honest and maybe come clean and apologize. And I want to play a scene from that second to last episode that addresses this.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "HACKS")
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) So little problem - someone made a supercut of some of your more problematic older material and it's gaining traction. And apparently some students are planning to protest your ceremony.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Ugh (ph). OK, which minority group is upset?
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) OK, not great that you have to ask that, and also, I don't think minority is the proper term anymore.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) What are they called?
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) No, don't say they.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Oh, I thought everybody was they now.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) That's a different thing.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) OK, just - oh, God. This is just the worst possible timing.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) For you to be held accountable for your actions?
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Yes. I am inches away from my [expletive] dream job.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Hey. I think you're getting off pretty easy. OK? You're lucky that Zsa Zsa Gabor [expletive] is only available on VHS. I mean, it was textbook slut-shaming.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Well, she was a slut.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Oh, my - well, and that's - but that's fine.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) Oh, God. OK, look. We got to squash this.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) I guess. Or you could just apologize.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) No.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Deborah, the jokes weren't great. You wouldn't do them today.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) No. You never apologize for a joke. I'm a comedian. I was just doing my job. OK. OK, look, look, it's just some of the students, right?
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) Yeah.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) OK, OK, then all I have to do is, you know, curry favor on campus with the other students. You know, drown out the dissenters. Make the minority voices a minority.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) That can go right in the supercut.
SMART: (As Deborah Vance) I'll tell what we're going to do. We will go to that fraternity party tonight. I'll buy them supplies. And I will do that student improv show I was invited to do. It's a perfect opportunity to make myself look good.
EINBINDER: (As Ava Daniels) OK. Deborah, improv has never made anyone look good, OK?
BALDONADO: I like ending with that...
DOWNS: (Laughter).
BALDONADO: ...Knowing that the co-creators of this show came up in improv. Yeah, I want to just ask you about how you figured out how you wanted Deborah to respond to this because it is - this is really one of the most kind of in-depth and sophisticated ways of taking on this topic of cancel culture and how people aren't really canceled, actually.
DOWNS: Yeah.
BALDONADO: Or as Deborah says, you know, she was canceled, you know, years ago before there was ever a name for it.
DOWNS: Right.
BALDONADO: And it only became - they only gave it a name after it started happening to powerful white men.
DOWNS: Yes. Yeah, I think that's actually - like, for us, it was one of the really important things because in the history of the character, she was maligned in the press by an ex-husband who was jealous and, you know, made to seem crazy. And so she was somebody who was wrongfully canceled. But, again, like she says, there wasn't a name for it. It really has only had a name when it started happening to powerful white men.
So, you know, in a way, especially for someone like Deborah, who has been on the right side of history and, you know, again, in the history of the character was fined by the FCC for saying abortion on TV. You know, she did things that were progressive, and she did things that were left-leaning and she did things that she feels should get her a pass, and that the fact that she's getting taken to task now is really not fair. And what Ava says is yes, and people can have a reaction to your work because you're a rich and famous comedian. And it's not a judgment on your entire being. It's about certain work that you did.
And I think that's, like, an important thing because I do understand the defensiveness that comedians have when there is pushback or there is negative reaction. Because oftentimes as a comedian, your job is to observe the world and to make people laugh. And if you've done that, you know, A, you feel as though you've done your job well and B, if over time it hasn't aged well, it feels like it's an attack of your actual being because it's your observations. It's the way your mind works.
But the truth is it's just about jokes. I do think it's not about - I don't think people are like, wow, that person is bad with a capital B forever. You know, I think it usually is more site specific. And so yeah, I think it was a way for us to be able to sort of show both sides of the argument. And hopefully, just the fact that Deborah is willing to engage speaks volumes to the fact that she isn't a hack. You know, she's somebody who evolves.
BIANCULLI: Paul W. Downs speaking with Ann Marie Baldonado last year. The fourth season of "Hacks" began streaming this week on HBO Max. After a break, film critic Justin Chang reviews a new movie "Warfare" based on true stories of U.S. Navy Seals serving overseas. This is FRESH AIR. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
