SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Not long ago, Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelenskyy was being hailed as a modern day Winston Churchill. Now, President Trump is calling him a dictator. What's more, the U.S. is starting to sound as if it's more closely aligned with Russia. Trump even insinuated that Ukraine was to blame for the war. In short, it has been a wild week. To sort through it all, we are joined by NPR White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez and NPR national security correspondent Greg Myre. Hey to both of you.
FRANCO ORDOÑEZ, BYLINE: Hey, Scott.
GREG MYRE, BYLINE: Hi. Hi, Scott.
DETROW: Greg, I want to start with you. Can you just catch us up to speed, briefly remind us how this happened so quickly?
MYRE: Yeah. Since Russia carried out its massive invasion of Ukraine, which was three years ago this coming Monday, there's really been no full-fledged diplomatic effort to end the war. Well, that changed rather quickly and dramatically when President Trump called Russian leader Vladimir Putin on February 12, just nine days ago. This marked the end to a concerted U.S. effort to isolate Putin. It also showed Trump wanted to work through Russia, perhaps even more so than through Ukraine. And this was followed by a U.S. delegation meeting Russian counterparts in Saudi Arabia.
And then, Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy began exchanging barbs. Trump called Zelenskyy a dictator. Zelenskyy said Trump appeared to be living in Russian disinformation space.
DETROW: Franco, the desire for a deal, are we seeing any movement yet toward any possible agreement?
ORDOÑEZ: I mean, it's really tough to say, especially if you listen to, you know, Donald Trump, that is, President Trump. I mean, he hosted a bipartisan group of governors at the White House today where he said he had, quote, "very good talks with Putin" and, quote, "not such good talks with Ukraine." He's also been mocking Kyiv for talking tough, but not having any leverage to be tough.
And those comments echoed some that Trump delivered even earlier today on Fox radio, where he basically praised Putin for wanting to make a deal and said that if he wanted to have Ukraine, he could take it all. And therefore, responding to criticism from Zelenskyy about being excluded from the talks with Russia, Trump attacked Zelenskyy again, saying Zelenskyy wasn't important enough to be at the meetings.
DETROW: I mean, Greg, Trump has staked out a number of, you know, shall we say provocative foreign policy positions? Does his approach to Ukraine appear to be part of the same pattern?
MYRE: Yeah, Scott. It really does, in many ways. Trump keeps talking about acquiring territory - Gaza, Greenland, Canada, the Panama Canal. Now, in Ukraine, Trump is calling for the U.S. to get 50% of the valuable minerals in that country, which he views as payment for U.S. military and humanitarian assistance in recent years.
Now, Trump made these countries (ph) about the other places really out of the blue, and many think these are completely unrealistic notions that really won't go anywhere. It's a little different in Ukraine. Trump is pushing very hard right now for a ceasefire and the minerals deal, and he recently sent the Treasury secretary to meet with the Ukrainians.
DETROW: Franco, tell us more about the supposed mineral deal, and how it fits into all of this.
ORDOÑEZ: Yeah. Trump teams have been pressing for the deal that would basically give U.S. access to vast amounts of Ukrainian critical minerals. The way the Trump team puts it, at least, is it will be a partnership that ensures greater security for Ukraine going forward as they work toward a peace deal with Russia because the U.S. would have interests in Ukraine. The Trump team also feels that Ukraine owes U.S. taxpayers some payback for the billions of dollars that the U.S. taxpayer has contributed to the war. But now critics argue that the U.S. is basically trying to fleece Ukraine of its valuable resources and essentially going to cripple the country.
DETROW: Where do these talks stand?
ORDOÑEZ: Well, Zelenskyy publicly dismissed the deal a little bit ago, enraging Trump and his team, hence the lashing out against Zelenskyy. National Security Advisor Mike Waltz told us reporters yesterday that Trump was very frustrated about that and about Zelenskyy walking away from the talks and was pushing to get him back. And that's why we heard all the insults against the President Zelenskyy.
Now, this morning, Waltz was at CPAC, the Conservative Political Conference (ph), where he signaled some progress, and he expected Zelenskyy to sign. And just a little bit ago, Trump was in the Oval Office also expressing some confidence that Zelenskyy would eventually sign because what Trump said is it keeps the U.S. in Ukraine, again for security.
DETROW: I mean, this is a lot of back and forth.
ORDOÑEZ: It is a lot of back and forth. I mean, Trump and his team have really left Zelenskyy very little wiggle room to move. Ukraine is just so dependent on the U.S. for security. And as Greg said earlier, the talks are going through Russia. I mean, Trump is not criticizing Putin in any way similar to how he is with Zelenskyy. He declined today to call Putin a dictator. He ignored the question when asked directly. And Trump emphasized that he needed to talk to Putin first because Putin was kind of leading the charge, and he needed to find out whether Putin would agree to the deal.
MYRE: And Franco, just to pick up on that, we should stress that Ukrainians do want this war to end. They're exhausted after three years of intense fighting. I've been going there on and off over the past three years, and you really do notice this, that you hear that more and more every time. But the Ukrainians are not prepared to surrender. They want a negotiated solution that protects their interests, and that really means security guarantees from the West and presumably the United States so that Russia can't attack again.
DETROW: I mean, Greg, the United States has bankrolled Ukraine's war effort. It has been a close ally in intelligence and military planning and humanitarian on so many fronts. And now suddenly - snap - that all shifts, and the United States president is attacking this country. So I'm curious, what does this all mean throughout Europe, where the U.S. has long guaranteed the security of its allies?
MYRE: Yeah, it's pointing towards just a dramatic shift. And based on these comments that Trump has made, he's just breaking with this fundamental principle of mutual defense between the U.S. and Europe. And this was established with the formation of NATO after World War II, and it's been maintained in a pretty robust form for 80 years now, going on 80 years. Now, the president is signaling to Europe now that their security is their business, that they're way too dependent on the U.S. and this arrangement is going to change. So what we're seeing in Ukraine looks to be not just about Ukraine. It appears to reflect how Trump wants to deal with all of Europe, which includes many of America's closest allies.
DETROW: That's NPR's Greg Myre along with Franco Ordoñez. Thanks to both of you.
ORDOÑEZ: Thank you.
MYRE: Sure thing. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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