MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Stephen Rapp prosecutes war crimes, and he knows Syria well. He's currently there with the Commission for International Justice and Accountability and the Syrian Emergency Task Force. They are helping to uncover evidence of mass graves after the fall of Bashar al-Assad's regime. He sat down with our co-host, Leila Fadel, during her reporting trip to Damascus.
STEPHEN RAPP: We had really here a machinery of death. You know, people disappeared, detained in horrific conditions, starved and tortured to death. And those numbers - you know, based upon the number missing, the number that have emerged, based upon the size of the mass graves, based on everything we know - are sadly in excess of 100,000 dead. And the numbers could be larger, and almost every family seems to have a member who is missing. Saying anything even that would hint at being a dissident and joking about the Assads or their family or their control would potentially send the family into dungeons. So, you know, the country is - as a result, is traumatized. There are tens of millions of documents that could provide us with the information on how every one of these people died. And frankly, this regime was document crazy. I mean, there is an immense trove of evidence.
LEILA FADEL, BYLINE: You know, what struck me when I was at Sednaya prison and other - Air Force Intelligence building is that I was walking on documents. People are leafing through ledgers, begging for international organizations to come here, document but also find their missing. What do global institutions need to do in this moment, in your opinion, now that the Assad regime has fallen?
RAPP: Well, they need to cooperate to the maximum extent in the efforts to secure those documents, you know, conduct an analysis and use it to, one, establish the truth, and second, to - so that it can be used in trials of those that bear the greatest responsibility.
FADEL: The new authorities are led by Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which is designated by the U.S., Europe, Canada, others. What challenges does that pose when it comes to cooperation, especially on this documentation but also generally as it tries to build a new Syria?
RAPP: I mean, it's a challenge to organizations to engage with the government. I mean, many of them that I've dealt with in the last several days are, you know, trying to figure out ways to work that don't bring them into direct contact with the top level, which you need to be in contact with, because they're fearful of themselves running into problems with sanctions, violations or losing their funding, which is necessary for them to continue this work.
FADEL: And you're talking about civil society groups.
RAPP: I'm talking about civil society - you know, White Helmets, CIJA, other organizations have these concerns. I think most people would like to see this resolve very, very quickly. But then it's necessary for the interim authorities to make sort of concrete steps. You certainly hear political people in Western countries say that the interim government is saying the right things. But what are they doing?
FADEL: This is an organization that had links to ISIS, that had links to al-Qaida. They broke those links, but there is a lot of concern that it may just be a rebranding, and that in a few weeks when there's not international attention, you may see Syria go into a different form of totalitarianism under a new regime. Are those concerns founded?
RAPP: Well, I mean, obviously, one needs to be concerned. I mean, you know, but I think that this becomes a trust-but-verify kind of situation. I'm not that worried about it, to be frank. But, I mean, obviously, it's something that we've got to be cautious about. And it - the key steps are inclusivity, the inclusion of other groups and other minorities in the various important aspects of building a state.
FADEL: Where should the accused be tried?
RAPP: The accused - that's multiple people. Assad on down should be tried in Syria, not in The Hague, not in Los Angeles. They should be tried here. Now, there'll be plenty of suspects that find their way into Western countries, and if countries want to prosecute them there, then Syria should cooperate with it. I mean, in Rwanda, there have been cases against Rwanda and genocidaires in 12 different countries. There's plenty of cases to go around.
But in terms of the senior leadership, there needs to be a court here established that meets international standards, that's led by Syrians, that includes international participation and advice that can try people fairly, you know, and so they can essentially be confronted by the victims, you know, against whom they committed such horrible crimes.
MARTIN: Stephen Rapp is a former U.S. ambassador-at-large for war crimes issues. He spoke with our co-host, Leila Fadel, in Syria. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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